Agreed. No sugarcoating, no pandering, no patronizing, no bullshit. It's not fun to hear but life isn't all rainbows and puppies. This site was started for people who are serious about art not for people who need to feel good about themselves.
There is nothing wrong in my eyes with saying out loud what you think is good or bad...that's why COW is working so well and is so popular. I also don't want ass-patting and if you look back to some past rounds especially the first ones around 1-15 there were a LOT of crits and people enjoyed giving and getting help...somehow COW set an own standard for this kind of activities and community...
I think of Matt Dixon, arteric and all the other guys who made mass-crits where EVERY piece got some crits. It was a great help.
So i think it's good, when you tell what you think, because it opens eyes.
The problem was the way you did, some people didn't like - as i said i am pretty free of pain regarding this...but maybe we can try to add some of the crit posts with individual critiques maybe to every entry or some like in the past.
I was kinda busy the last weeks, that's why i didn't enter the last rounds, but when i find some time i will try to introduce the crit part more, because that's what all of us are expecting when posting art here
Of course i love to get some sweet words from other people, but only sugar ruins the teeth...we need some proteins, vitamines and all this stuff which strenghtens your organism.
only sugar ruins the teeth. well put fozz.
i do apologize if i offended anyone.
my intentions were good, and there wasn`t any personal agendas in mind.
(which is something that unfortunately exists here: "you vote for me - i vote for you.." "you said nice things about my work, i`ll say nice things about yours...." etc.)
i guess i could have said things sugar coated so people`s feelings won`t get hurt. again - i apologize.
but i can`t see how these activities make any difference for my works.
not any more.
(it took MIKECORRIERO me criting HIS work to poop all over mine for example...which was professionalism at its best. way to go mikey!.)
so keep working ppl. practice makes perfect you know.
dham chuck.... i started an avalance...
when i called you on what you said, by no means was i in favour of dick sucking.. as you so elegently put it. i totally agree with you in that we should all critique each other very strongly. i myself am trying to improve and often disregars anything good said.. i want to hear whats wrong... but what made me first call you on your so called crits was the way you said things.... it wasn't trying to be constuctive.. just abusive.. and you no full well that out of your frustration you went for the jugular... and thats neither wanted or appreciated....
put simply it;s not what you say but the way you say it....
all that said it would be a shame for you to go as i enjoy your artwork and would like to see alot more from you here....
Chuck, i don't know why you say you're out...i mean when you have no time or just don't have fun to enter it's ok, but it can't be that you want to be out, just because someone said you are offending...
Argue, discuss and the thing will be ok...over the net it's hard to tell what you really think...you know if i would have been out after such situations, there were no more COW and i wouldn't participate in the community at all...
Try to take things easy and change em if you don't like it...you could help to bring back the crit posts as i planned to do, because everyone in COW especially the regulars appreciate this kind of posts, they posted many of them themselves before...it's just got lost the last times...
So if we want to have a nice playground, where we can play in joy and actually learn something and help others, we have to work on it...taking your toys and leaving is not the best way doing this.
COW works only if the community works.
Fozzy-Fozz (and anyone else that give a damn)-
there was a time the activities were the reason i got up in the morning and went to work. (seriously. i don`t have internet on my comp` at home, so i make all my posting from work. and designing stupid boring kid stuff for TV commercials 8 hrs a day isn`t reason enough, beilive me..)
gradualy i noticed the inner politics and agendas and the way things were done around here. and more and more it just seemed like something i don`t want to be a part of. i like the guys here, i really do.
all kidding and all things said aside.
most of us here aren`t pros. and we participate on our own good will and free time. but something is seriously rotten in the way people act and react to one another, on "who`s my buddy" and "who`d be a good person to suck up to" basis. it`s somewhat sickning.
so i`m taking my toys and go play somewhere else.
i still post all sort of stuff at the "It`s finally finished" thread.
(not that it`s much better there, but this is a whole different story..)
i just can`t put any more time , energy and enthusiasm into these activities any more. it`s just not worth it.
(sorry for doing it in this thread people...)
I don’t know why you are complaining Chuck. Quite a lot of your “crits” in “IT'S FINALLY FINISHED!!” section, is like: “wow DUDE, it’s AWSOME, post MORE!”…..
I can only say for my self….I usually writes something like: “I like it…..”, “It’s cool…”, because my English suck and I don’t have time, for sitting with dictionary and writing everything what I think. Maybe when I learn more and I will write more easily then my comment and critics will be longer. However, I want to say to somebody that i like his/her work. That’s all.
Be nice guy and give as an example and next time write something more like: “JakkaS - great rendering and colors as always, but its a guy with a large head and 1 eye. not really a COW.” – BTW, I know it’s not a COW. It is obvious! Usually COWs have horns, hoofs and they gives milk.
Hmmmm, I don’t want to defend Mike, but I think this is the way he work. He looks for inspiration, some reference and he change or add something to create something new. We always refer to example from real life. If not in straight way we do this subconsciously, I think.Originally Posted by Chuck
Cheer up, Chuck!
Ps. “COW works only if the community works.” - …FOZZ, as always a voice of reason.
Chuck---as a neophyte here myself. It would be sad to see a person of your stature leave. perhaps it isn't favoritism that effects the voting but application of different values. You seem to come from a very professional point of view where the standards are weighted towards highly finished work, adhereing to the the brief in every aspect. Others may be looking in terms of artistic presentation and applying a different set of criteria . One of the most fascinating aspects of this entire site is that the Artists are incredibly widespread and broadbased in background and training.
Some peoples opionions hold more weight than others, a status that they have gained through skill and experience. Your critiques carry a lot of weight which is why people react so strongly when you think so poorly of everyone's work.They are valid and valuable. which is why I, for one, would hate to see you leave the community.
In my own defense. I don't feel qualified to say much about others work, as I come from a theater and Costume background and often feel like I am thinking of these works in an entirly different frame of reference than the rest.
hey chuck,mate - i think i was one of the first people to post comments in your postings in the 'finally finished' threads a ways back beggin' you to come in here and do the creature of the week. i said this because i believed in your innate ability to creatively solve the topics posted on a weekly basis and i wanted to see ya kick arse in here. which you have....repeatedly, i might add. your ideas are refreshing and under the radar which makes them very appealing. i don't want you to go, who cares what others think - as long as you get something out of it that is constructive and has positive momentum, then that's all that there needs to be. so...."stay....pllllllease? geflings friend. wait! don't go.....! stay.....! stay!" (sorry, a bit of the dark crystal seeped out of me there).....
all the best!
There is no "I" in team, but there is an "I" in pie. And there's an "i" in meat pie. Meat is the anagram of team...~Shaun "Shaun of the Dead"
Chuck,mate...your petulant rantings & offensive retorts ("...all the little girls can stop crying now"......."just dick sucking each other to death") are over the top.
And no disrespect to redehlert (‘cause I love you, red) but...puleez...let’s not turn this into a "Please come back, dear Chuck, we love you" thread. This is not the first time he’s threatened to pull the plug. Enough already. Enjoy Toyland, Chuck, and get some help...
After a lot of thinking, I ended up with Orion. The concept, together with the really wonderful image, went just right into my heart. That it's a creature using it for its own purpose, but of course then used by others, was just classy.
Runners up was Romance, Ceberae, JakkaS and Standing.
Mike, were you influenced by China Mièvilles Perdido Street Station? Really nice and clean concept on you too.
Stephan_R and Michael Motion, the two of you should get some extra price for humour. I really dig the whole idea behind both of them, and nicely put down too. Stephan_R's is ending up as bg at my work computer, that way I can pretend I'm there with that fellow when I really need to.
"The fact that no one understands you doesn't make you an artist"
Sork's SB - Crits appreciated - not getting updated atm
C G H U B SB Thread
Facebook, please send me a message about your username
Thx Mike. I‘m bit confused, when I have last time check the votes, I was second. I have even congratulated to Orion9282 on his win.Originally Posted by Mike
I know I'm not the one to be sayin this, but...
WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YA'LL???
This isn' a popularity contest, Chuck, I know that; but, you told me, when I criticized everyone's pieces as childlish crap, that If I had nothing good to say, then I should remain silent.
Better to close your yap and look dum, than to open it and remove all doubt.
Now, c'mon, Mike; don't let his childlish comments get in your nerve, sometimes people just mess up with others cause they lack any other way to spend their time.
Religion without science is blind, but science without religion is lame
Just wanted to say thanks to all of those people who voted for me on my first entry (and no, I'm not thanking myself ). But congrats to JakkaS!
Good luck to everyone in the Cohesion contest!
Thx Orion, I was sure that you will win.Originally Posted by Orion9282
Good luck to you.
Thx guys for your votes, comments nad crits.
hmmm, where to start.
No more ass-patting. I can honestly admit I've done this in the past, but will refrain from doing so from now on. These forums are a place to learn, teach and have fun, all of which can be obtained from C&C. Ass-pats, unfortunately, only give us a mild taste of psuedo-success and dirty hands.
I feel alot of people around the forums, new and veteran, don't know, or have forgotten how to give proper critiques.
The following is how I view critiques and could be considered possible ground rules for going about a critique. Please, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or am missing something (which I certainly am).
- To help your fellow artists understand what's working and what isn't in there design, technique, etc.
- Helping others spot mistakes a mile away. The better you get a spotting problems in anothers work, the more chance you'll notice it in your own.
- About delivering different ideas to other artists that he or she may have not thought of or overlooked, in order to boost creativity and the mental library.
- About treating everyone equally.
- An opportunity to slam someone you don't like, understand, or don't know. After all, the critique is about the art, not the person who painted it.
- Meant to be vague (ie. "...not much of an idea.") Tell the artist why the idea/topic is unsuccessful or successful, and suggest ideas on how to improve.
- To be taken as offense or the end of the world. Leave the pride or box of tissues at home. If someone notices a glaring mistake or inconsistancy, suck it up and fix it, it will only help you the end.
- Ass-pats. Like the box of tissues, leave the 'Way To Go" mentality at home.
As far as people 'leaving' the weeklies. Let them, it's their issue. I don't care who leaves or who stays. Doesn't affect me in anyway, might just mean one less vague critique and another entry to look at, which in the end ,might make it easier to pick an entry to vote for.
As far as my previous post about arguing... I agree, sure it happens, and it doesn't always hurt to have it around, but when it gets to a point when people are, or close to, spitting out vulgarities at each other, then it isn't constructive anymore, but personal.
Foz, I wasn't saying you were being a bad mod, (you do a helluva a job around here picking up after us kids, it's mucho appreciated), I was just making some recommendations to make the weeklies more constructive and reduce the slam sessions.
Oh, and I think that whole banana-ear look is working for you, it'll only be a matter of time before everybodies doin' it... can you say Macarena.
While I haven't been a member for that long, I did lurk for a year n more and I noticed exactly what chuck is on about with the politics and back-patting.
In the end I decided to suck in a deep breath, hope that their was a core community beyond the 'back-patters', join and go 'online' to post artwork.
Chuck has, imo, seen it how it it. How he said it and expresses his pov is for the beholder to eye, but really, I have seen a lot of good art, shit art and mediocre art on this site in all varying stages of skill and ability.
There is alot of arse-pandering and politic- people vote for their favourite art based on the artist/rendering more than on concept; fozzy pointed it out at about 30% concept to 70% favouritism and that is what it is.
My advice; Deal with it. It ain't going to change.
This is democracy.
(and I thought my rendering was pretty crap; chuck had the gravity to say it, re-affermating how I felt, so no hard kudos from here)
Points at Romance post above
WERD up, if only peeps would memorize this kind of ideal for critiques.
Last edited by Jonoy; February 28th, 2006 at 04:30 AM.
I have read some post again and I feel like I won, because some people voted for me, not for ma work. Its bit frustrating. I don’t know if anyone have in mind me, but this make me feel like ass.
I think, the best what I can do, is to follow the leads written by Romance and just paint as I did before.
I don't mean offence to you so don't go feeling like an ass.
You have a wonderful style of painting (that is an inspiration to me) and I know that when I have voted for you it wasn't just about your style (as a polished final is always part of the decision), it is because I have felt that the concept was the best and rendered well enough (by that I mean really well!) to be of a quality that I would appreciate as a Professional.
Regarding the winner of this round, i have the feeling that there is a relation to Orion's little mistake, hehe...like not voting for him, but that's not important at the moment...because it's not about winning.....it's about DEVASTATING hahahaha...shut up.
Actually, fozzy speculated that it's 30% concept and 70% "ooh, pretty!" (back in the voting thread for Huge Dog Endboss - http://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61495 )Originally Posted by Jonoy
Favoritism could also skew the results, though, as could "So-and-so pisses me off, I'm not going to vote for his critter!" There's nothing you can do to make your vote matter more, so my advice would be to make your post explaining your vote really count - put in as much constructive criticism as you have the time to give, and hope others do the same.
Last edited by hwango; February 28th, 2006 at 05:21 PM.
Sooo... we should vote for the best concept, or the best piece?Originally Posted by hwango
Cause there are good concepts with mediocre drawings; and mediocre concepts with good drawings.
Religion without science is blind, but science without religion is lame
I come here because the talent in the forum is incredible. Probably the most exciting place to compete on a weekly basis for 2D artists. I don't care that I lost (JakkaS' originality trumps mine anyways) but I would hope that I don't carry this negative association/reputation forever because of one mistake.Originally Posted by Fozzybar
I felt I had apologized and cleared up the confusion, but it would seem that it won't be forgotten or forgiven. I'll apologize again (sorry to everyone).
If there's more that I can do to clear this up, please, tell me.
just vote for the one, which is best done in your eyes, regarding topic, concept, design, art etc...
I don't know if there are people who vote for some members because of personal relation or whatever...i know that it happened a few times, especially by members voting for their colleague at work.
That's something which is not pretty, but well, i can understand it...
So under the line there might be sometimes pieces which didn't win though they deserved it, but we have to admit that on each round there is a winner which would be under the top 3 anyway...so it's not like a crappy entry takes the crown because of favoritism...
I just wish that we will care more about the helping and giving c&c to each other, especially from the participants of every round, because they expect some c&c, so they have to give when they want to achieve...
never mindm y comment, it was a lame joke and we already forgot about this.....err.....what was it again....who cares...forgotten...
You obviously have awesome skills regarding concept and art, so we are glad that you are here and i liked the mature way you responded to *meeep*...
...Two chicken sandwiches, tomato’s salad, small cola…or no, maybe big beer and …cheer up Orion!Originally Posted by Orion9282
Well, it's concept art, it should be 50/50.Originally Posted by Thoras
Though, I'm pretty sure some peoples barely read the concept and see the 'Oh my freakin god, this thing is absolutely perfect/crazy/insane/tralala!', which is a common housecat with a different color, and vote for it.
I think that's why I stopped postings stuff here, other than my damned lack of motivation, after my very first entry on CoW.
Anyway, I returned to have competition, make my will stable, try to make complete pieces once and for all. The vote part might get ignored though, simply cause of the eroned attitude for voting, well, how I saw it so far anyway.
Thinking about giving crits too, but my english is too horrible, like JaKKaS. I might scare peoples off with too much comments.
Just speak french, that makes everything sound better.
sehertu mannu narāṭu ina pānāt šagapīru ningishzidda
the very idea that you who are not native english speakers are in here slashing around with the rest of us is astounding and amazing, even if your art sucked, (quite the contrary your art is some of the very best and speaks for itself) the fact that you are brave enough to jump in here and try to conmunicate with us one-language idiots (im speaking for myself here) is worth praisee in and of itself.
goddess forbid I should try to comunicate in french or polish or russian or any of the other beautiful languages you all speak and think everyday. I for one will never ever ever correct your grammar or anything..
we all speak the language of art.