we are not dragging ca.org through the mud!
im only talking for myself, but all i do is questioning jmanleys integrity, which should not equal wanting to hurt a community with 300k users that became my homebase over the years.
 the one that put fuel to the fire has been him himself, by going by a routine most of us know all too well... adjusting, editing, and so far all we got is a promise...
I wasn't planning on posting anything in this thread since I'm just a mostly-lurker, but I wanted to say because no one else has that I have been impressed by how calm and reasonable Jason has been in his posts here. Consider all the accusations and unpleasant things which have been said about him in this thread and elsewhere (which it seems were either unwarranted or at least way over-sensationalised) - most people would find that devastating and respond with extreme emotions. I want to say to Jason that I appreciate how professionally he has handled his comments here and actions to rectify the situation, and I hope he is able to continue to do that even if CA is being unfairly affected.
I think it would be great if people would hang fire now, until there is evidence of anything to fire at.
No one stole anything. TAD was late to pay. Rigney was paid tens of thousands of dollars for his video over the years and his last payment has been made by John English at TAD. If it was sony or EA or Microsoft (all of whom have been late to pay with me for example, and we had that up there, we would be getting letters from their lawyers. Both CA.O and I could have very easily done that with Brad and did not. I have worked to clear this up and have been all over TAD since last June and prior to be sure it's finance department does its job). I will not allow CA to be run through the mud on this again.
Though in general lawyers in this kind of situation would be bad regardless. Not the same as a big company.
I'm sorry, I just fail to see where he has been doing anything but responding, quite professionally, to all the angry messages so far. You must see something that I do not.
I haven't been on here long enough to know anything that he has done in the past. So I'm not making any character judgement based on your word, that he caused some other sort of drama. Therefore, I am not focusing on the distant past, but rather what has gone on over the past day.
*please note that the following does not accuse any of the entities involved of anything, drag them through the mud, or slander them- and merely comments on the discussion being had and the comments that have been publicly said.*
CA, whether deservingly or otherwise, has already been run through the mud and the stigma is already there, and was, before the brad discussion even began this week. (as is obvious by this thread referencing all kinds of pent up feelings). its too late to try and use a threat to change that- by posting the threat in and of itself youre running ca through the mud. (note that while you may not see identifying illegal accusations as an actual 'threat'- other people, less practiced in legal terms and less comfortable with the legal side of the art world will still read it as one and feel very uncomfortable). i think we could all agree at this point that CA's stigma has been around for a few years at least. (as far back as 2009), and because of it the site certainly isnt what it was. if youre serious about saving this site and making things the best for the community, i think the efforts would be better spent trying to regain the lost audience by getting back to how things were- not trying to lock in the remaining audience with what reads as threats, legal jargon, and indifference to obvious and publicly agreed-on flaws. as the boss of something, its not only your job to provide and assure quality, its also your job to take the bad with the good- even when its disproportionate (like in this case). when companies like microsoft and ea and whoever else you could mention are late or make mistakes to their audience and employees, im sure people do complain, and im sure some go as far as to try and expose it in rare cases (like now). the difference here is, those companies very, very rarely come out of the gate with public threatening and alienating responses- even if they have the legal right to. why? because by doing so means they decrease their already reduced audience and push whats left of it away. did you have the right to sue brad or threaten legal action? of course. but doing so would have been the literal final nail in the coffin for your side of the argument in this thread, so of course you did not. we all understand this as an obvious move to make on your behalf- and it was the right one. Im sorry if this is all false and youre being dishonestly put down left and right and center- but as the figurehead of something this big, its your job to weather the storm like a man deserving of his position. when you're the boss, people are always gonna talk shit about you- no matter what. Its one of the necessary downsides to a position with all the sway, all the power, and all the control. youre the boss- Its always gonna be on YOU. (even when it isn't). Im looking forward to your evidence and hopefully brads as well, but theres no reason to throw punches at the audience just cause the boxing match isn't going your way. the only way to improve a reputation and a standing in a community is to actively do new and good things over time. nothing changes when you simply tell people to stop talking about the bad and misunderstood with threats and uncomfortable legal terms. Sure, fixing things over time the right way might take longer, and sure it might be very annoying to see some of these issues haunting your standing in the community- but its still your job and responsibility to end this discussion the right way- not the quick way.
Last edited by Henchman 21; March 8th, 2013 at 08:43 PM.
as ive stated earlier im fine with the promise and the outlook of some clear evidence.
yet meanwhile another issue surfaced, which is an old one. you say you dont know the history, not having been here... fine and justified... but what makes you questioning those, that have been here? everytime an issue like this occured, the justifiction behind censoring been the same... "i wont let me or ca.org have a bad reputation". thats exactly the behaviour that gives ca.org a bad reputation. ignoring critique and (sometimes) accusations, handling it with the eraser and the ban hammer.
again you say you aint been here... yet you feel qualified to judge this issue?
I guess I just didn't read that last portion of his previous post as a "threat" but more of a, "this is getting ridiculous"
Edit* Sone, I'm simply say I cannot judge him based on the past. I am certainly qualified to judge the current issue at hand because that is what this is all about. me not being here for the last event automatically makes me not allowed to share my statements about the current issue then?
If he DOES start whipping out the ban hammer, then we have another problem.
This thread is now about cute rabbits.
-I often post from my phone; so please excuse the typosSketchbook
Someone else already posted a few pages back that they were a fairly new user and this thread would turn them off CA quite a bit I believe the persons words were. Or something similar. If your running a site and the facts aren't in and right smack dab in one of the most frequented forum spots "CA.org Steals from artists".
That does run your site through the mud. Especially with this thread and the mob mentality that's been going on for god knows how long before at least some information came out. If your someone new looking into the community and notice a big thread with the above title then trying to sift through 21 pages of this try to tell me you wouldn't be turned off at joining a new forum with all this. A new user would look at this and be like "Hmmm... where's the info saying CA.org steals? Then sift through pages and pages of Manley hate".
Some might say "well fine that's what you get with this whole incident". To me that's a bit much. Especially when it's been said by TAD, Jason and Brad himself CA had nothing to do with it.
If Jason edits some actual posts. Hell I'm out but a title? Naw.
Well, the fact that this has somehow changed from, the topic of the OP, to concerns that Jason is going to live up to his reputation of banning all over again, is beyond me. If that is how he handled issues in the past, shame on him. If that is how he will begin to handle this again, then you have every right to continue criticizing him for it.
But until that happens, what else is there to say?
edit: my point exactly JFierce. This has turned into something that it should not have.
lol I feel like we need a separate thread to answer the questions that have been answered already. To sum up what we found out, so new people dont have to go through all the garbage to find the answers.
EX: Like, clearing CA's name. Was CA.org involved in the issue at hand? No, because....blah blah blah
what we need is a subforum called 'days of our lives'- reserved only for these kinds of dramatic and polarizing plot twists.
http://conceptart.org/forums/showthr...21#post3449621 can drop in there and say his side of the story, like why Brad got the compensation runaround after what looks like a merger between Illustration Academy & CA and who dropped the ball in his case. (Manley says in pages 14 or 15 or so of this thread that it's his fault. Is that libel?)
To quote Shawn Barber's post on DA:
Not trying to start shit or anything, after initially posting in this tread I've mostly been calmly waiting for some form of evidence from Jason to surface, so far we've had just promises, and conflicting/non-solid answers to the tough questions. To Jason and all the well-meaning people in this thread, we ask the hard questions because we want to discover the truth. You know what happened in the past? Things like this would happen, Jason comes in and says everything's fine/ bans people, and enough well-intentioned members of the community leave to allow for matters to die down. However, it doesn't matter if things die down here or not, the wounds have already been made and the scars remain. You only need to look everywhere else outside of CA to see what people's opinion of our community is like now. Who do you think caused this? The people that demanded answers whenever something like this happened? Or the people who brushed it aside?Hi Brad-
I am not a member of this community, but was at one time a participant on the ConceptArt.Org website and workshops. I am also a close friend and knowledgeable ally of the fine folks at Massive Black. The unfortunate reality of life and business is that the truth never gets the opportunity to present itself to the general public, in most cases. NDA's, legal threats and other contractual obligations prevent those with honest facts and moral ethics from speaking the truth, publicly.
It's humbling to see your post and know what has been done to you. It's been done to me and countless, countless other professional artists that honestly care about helping others and sharing information in forums and workshops where the price of education is affordable and many times given away freely.
WE are artists. Professional, ethical, hardworking individuals that sacrifice our personal lives, health and well being for the pursuit of hopefully making enough money to pay our bills, feed our families and have the luxury of making art on a daily basis. It's awesome. And we love it. But there have been and always will be those individuals that know our weaknesses and understand our tolerance for those that appear to be the leaders of the artistic community.
What's amazing about the internet is ANYONE and EVERYONE has a voice.
The problem that we have as artists is our need and desire to 'get in where you fit in'.
Again, we all need to make a living and doing it by making art is what most of us strive for. With this global platform, time and time again, the general public is warned by those of us that have been done wrong by those in 'power'. The real problem is more people need to listen to the facts. The consistency of character. The stories told by characters who prey on young aspiring artists.
It's always happened and will continue to happen. Fortunately, we have this public forum, the Internet. And we have people like Brad Ringley that are willing to say 'enough is enough'. Please listen and walk away from tyrants like Mr. Manley.
Jason, throw legal threats around all you want, but the one really doing damage to CA's reputation is yourself. Have you seen what John and the others from TAD has done since this incident has started? They've reached out to Brad, communicated around the internet regarding what happened and explained themselves. During this time you've done nothing but state (I was gonna use feign, but I'll wait for evidence) your ignorance, promise to CA you'll give answers and stayed largely on CA for damage control.
How is that gonna help repair CA's image from this incident? Right now, the conclusion that pretty much everyone outside of CA is drawing from this is that CA+JManley screwed Brad and many others over, John and others from TAD came in and cleaned up the mess and made things right. I'm not saying that's the truth, since you want to offer new evidence, however, if you really want to fix damage to CA's reputation, you would get out there and do just that, changing a thread title and acting like the victim on CA itself ain't gonna change a single thing.
I'm not famous enough to warrant a ban or any real notice, but I've been here long enough to know that the underlying issue here isn't just a simple bureaucratic accounting issue. In the 'good old days' when we told someone we went on CA, it meant we were hard working artists working together as part of an amazing community to improve artistically. Now days, we are known for our 'dramas', censorship and banning, "all the good artists are gone" etc etc. I personally haven't posted much in my sketchbook since the last "incident" which drove away many of my close art friends on CA, however there are still many hardworking artists here, and it's totally unfair for them when Jason tells them to "go draw, it's crit week" while he goes out doing things that ruin CA's reputation for everyone.
Sure, you could say, well who cares right? We can just keep drawing by ourselves and ignore what others think. Well that's true, but once upon a time, CA.org was known for being the best place to go for young artists. Now days, we probably have the worst reputation amongst the art communities, do you think that's healthy for the longevity of CA?
If you want to repair the reputation of this forum Jason and not make us ashamed to say are members of this community everywhere else we go on the internet, then I would suggest you get out there and fix it - instead of sitting on your throne licking your wounds.
PS: I think disagreements are healthy for this discussion of this topic since we don't have any solid evidence from both TAD and Jason yet, however, please don't let the conversation get derailed, creeptool is an obvious idiot (if he's a troll he's not doing a very good job) JUST IGNORE HIM.
Last edited by paperX; March 8th, 2013 at 09:01 PM.
I would agree with a lot of this except a lot users don't think CA is even involved in this. Because TAD has stated CA is CA TAD is TAD. In Brads response he says the same thing. Of course TAD rectifies the situation if TAD is the one at fault.
Hence why everyones waiting for that documented stuff Jasons gathering trying to clear his name of his involvement in TAD at the time..
and where are people getting all this ban jazz from? No one has been banned except a couple of really bad trolls and people who have been using Dummy accounts because they don't want to put their actual name behind their opinions. No posts have even been edited except the title so it doesn't have glaring CA.org steals in it.
Edit: realized "out of CA" might mean outside of CA. If that's the case. Then well. Yerp that sucks. Hope some hard evidence comes forward to get rid of CA in this issue.
Yeah sorry I meant outside of CA, I think it's totally fair that TAD rectifies IF they are at fault (by "they" I'm talking about John English etc, since Jason still has stakes in TAD). The thing is, that's not the issue here, the wider art community pretty much see it like this now: there are two parties that could have screwed Brad and others over: TAD feat John English and crew or Jason Manley and CA.org.
One of the parties is out there making things right, the other isn't.
I know thing's aren't as black and white as that, and there are many of us out there defending CA from this mess, but it ain't helping when Jason himself isn't exactly contributing.
Well Jason has been answering questions for pages at least. It gets lost in this mess of a thread though. He's not bringing a ban hammer or making edits (besides a title). Some don't believe him, so he said he'd get an audit and release what documents he can as soon as he can. It takes time to get the right to release private documents legally as I said earlier in the thread it's not as simple as "here you go guys!" do that kind of stuff and you'll be the one in hot water hence why brad probably didn't lay anything specific in public, so hopefully he can get those sometime soon. But some people still don't like that even thinking it's a sham. What can you say past that? Just wait for the stuff to be posted and wait how you feel I guess.
I don't expect other sites to probably know any updates on this and are still in the pitchfork and angry mob state unless they're keeping up to date on the actual site in question aka CA.org. Problem is other sites are less likely to believe anything regardless. Hence them being on other sites. Unless there's something truly concrete "Here it is, try to deny this logic bitches". CA will be hurt to some extent regardless sadly.
But all the "weeding" in forum posts and threads that went on before makes sense to me know. Like you how Maxine Schacter of Max the Mutt school got bullied out of here, why Feng's school got dissed...it's all about making sure the site feeds a lot of paying/loan-in-hand (naive?) students to TAD. Not saying that's wrong or immoral (businessman is just protecting his interest).
TAD handled site revenue streams, Manley did his thing (read his posts here, where he said he did other things than overlook finances). Voluntary mods tooks care of the the "front end" of the forum. And Jason safe to say gets enough from TAD to pay the forum upkeep fees (which is almost like $50K/yr).
Sure, but John English, Ron Lemen, Sterling Hundley and others from TAD have all step forward and publicly stated TAD's position on the incident (contradicts what Jason has said mind you). You could also argue that a lot of people won't believe them either, however the difference is one party is out there offering an explanation, while the other is refusing to comment (outside of CA). I dunno about you, but that's never a good thing.
Can someone point to Sterlings post wherever it is? Never saw that one and can't really find it. Ron I saw incriminating CA as a whole but at the same time only for CA products saying TAD is TAD products CA is CA products which in Brads response John told him the contracts were switched from CA to TAD. So Rons kind of condemning CA while not having a clue that TAD is the one responsible for the royalties it seemed to me.
Johns response unless he made a followup I thought was the standard "I knew nothing of this, but I'll make it right" unless he made some more details apparent but I can't find such a post.
I haven't heard an explanation from any of them as to how it happened. Would be very curious about this. Also where's the contradiction? Aside from everyone at TAD feigning ignorance and Jason stating he filed reports or something.
Edit: Oh yeah and the sham I'm referring to is getting an audit. Some people think it's not impartial. Which is what Blackspot was talking about either at the top of the page or a page ago I think.
Last edited by JFierce; March 8th, 2013 at 10:12 PM.
Okies. A little tip for anybody who wants to make friends and influence people on the internet. Google your username. No, no kidding. Go ahead and do it. Every post you have ever made under that name on a public forum is there for millions of people to see. They will form an opinion of you based on what they can see.
That includes present and future employers and that cute girl in front of you in the queue for Starbucks. Every boring, arrogant, apologetic, argumentative or downright offensive statement you ever made on a public forum.
Now, I think that discussion is a healthy thing, but there will be (and will have been, looking back) things said here that maybe should be kept to signed-in members of this forum, rather than the whole big world-wide web.
I don't know. Is there a way that a mod can make this only viewable to signed-in members of CA?
I guess that's true if you have your username with your name plastered all over it. Though I highly doubt that cute girl in front of you at starbucks gives a shit about something you said on an internet forum, or even your employers will somehow be able to track down what you say in a random thread and be like
"AHA! This person is so not worth hiring!"
Most people don't give a shit.
Oh gee maybe you should be careful what you say on the internet.
Who would have thought....
I know thanks.